Brexit (The return of....)


Broadly thanks to Blair, maybe… Cameron’s ‘lets get more cunts to vote for us referendum ruse’ however is as Blue as an Inuits bell end.


Quite so,


In their support of the Spanish government’s crack down on voters having a referendum, the EU Commission aren’t doing themselves any favours. No dissent is tolerated!


This is what they said

I think it’s exactly what I’d have wanted them to say. I paraphrase:

i) It’s Spain’s business, and Spain has a constitutional court which has ruled that trying to hold a referendum would be illegal.

ii) The EU is for “unity and stability, not divisiveness and fragmentation” (well I guess the clue is in the EU’s name …).

iii) All that said, they disapprove of the violence and trust that citizens’ fundamental rights will be upheld.

What’s not to like ?





^ There’s a difference between simplifying a complex situation so that dummies can grasp at least some basic aspects of it and printing a misleading diagram in block capitals and primary colours, although it was honest of them to point out in the corner that the crayoning was done by people who are not exactly unbiased.

Perhaps a more accurate version would go

Can we vote ?
You haven’t checked whether voting would be consistent with the Constitution, as it stands.
What does the Constitution say ?
It says the vote would be illegal.

There’s no circularity to this argument. If they want to leave they either have to get the Constitution changed, which will involve some willingness on the other side, or they have to leave in defiance of the law, which in the past has quite often involved some people being shot.



I’m far from being a legal expert; would the right to self determination in the UN Charter, to which Spain is a signatory, not mean that their constitution is in violation?

Edit: I guess whether that’s technically the case or not is almost irrelevant without a way to enforce, which would probably require involvement from other UN member states.


Me neither, but I suspect that this quote from the Wikipedia article on self-determination says it all really

The principle does not state how the decision is to be made, nor what the outcome should be, whether it be independence, federation, protection, some form of autonomy or full assimilation.[8] Neither does it state what the delimitation between peoples should be—nor what constitutes a people. There are conflicting definitions and legal criteria for determining which groups may legitimately claim the right to self-determination.[9]

If we all had the right to self-determination then the patch ruled by South Oxfordshire District Council wouldn’t be leaving the EU.



Yeah that’s the point. Scotland has the right to self determination as due to historical reasons it’s a country; doesn’t mean I can secede from the evil Tories.


Like Mercia then.

Spain is a country because, basically, just about everyone agrees that it is. It’s not even clear that a majority of the people who live there think Catalonia is a country, and far from everyone outside recognises it as such.



Hmm. I don’t think it’s quite that simple.

Catalonia has quite an interesting & colourful history as an autonomous region. The Franco led dictatorship that emerged from the Spanish civil war proved to be repressive and dismantled the remaining Catalan institutions while banning the use of their language.


It never is. Ultimately people can find any excuse for their butthurt.


Looked to be more truncheons than rifle butts although no doubt the bruising is the same.



Indeed. It has quite and interesting and colourful present as an autonomous region. All the argy-bargy seems to be about how far that autonomy should go and, in particular, whether they should go for full independence.

One of the root problems is the money. Catalonia is a relatively rich region and, along with Madrid, is one of the two largest net contributors to the Spanish economy. Like a lot of rich people who find themselves supporting poorer people it seems quite a few of the Catalans fancy cutting loose with their rather large slice of the cake and letting the poor folks sink or swim. Unsurprisingly the national government, representing the rest of Spain, doesn’t fancy that much.



Don’t Cornwall and Mersyside also want some sort of independence?


I believe Merseyside held the view that Scotchland could have it’s independence as long as they took Runcorn with them.


Cornwall, despite how much they’ll get shafted, still returned Tory MP’s this time.
There is a generally low level independence movement there but nothing too serious. One of their beefs was that it wasn’t historically an English county but actually should be regarded as a home nation with the same status as Wales, Northern Ireland or Scotland.


I had the curious pleasure to meet a representative of the The Cornish Nationalist Party (CNP). He was very passionate about Cornish independence and the Cornish language which ebbs ever closer to extinction. His other main argument was Cornish culture an example which he trotted out was Cornish ‘Wrastling’ seemingly from another planet let alone state the blinkers were on but the mind was gone.


The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.

Thomas Paine

Never been said better