Yeah, thanks 
A very similar Danley inspired design was all the rage on the Klipsch forum a few years ago as a top for either the Khorn, Jubilee or Klipsch Theatre bass bins. From memory I think they modified the high/mid horn from the Jubilee with the additional drivers.
6 Likes
Yes, there are similarities in fiddling with phase written up on the Klipsch forum.
Could you 3d print it? There are quite a few options for getting slightly larger stuff than possible on a home 3d printer, still at fairly low prices.
Anyway this is great, excellent project 
Yes, It would be ideal if I had the wherewithal to do it.
I can visualise and work traditionally, create iterations - the 5" cone tap adapter, I think that’s where the work will be…
The real deal is simply clamped in place on the driver face.
First step would be to acquire a B&C coaxial and measure up.
Keeping this short for MG…
After a while in the less than flat phase wilderness, and lots of time spent with fiddling with PEQs (both over and under done:roll_eyes:), 1st order X/Os on and off, and some time alignment to subtly shift phase too
(I’ve read how to posts and guides over and over!)…
I’ve got something a lot closer to flat phase over most of the freq range!
It sounds much better too.
Removing big phase shifts is a fascinating aspect to improving multiway speaker sound.
Target is within 45 degree shift over the freq range.
3 Likes
As with most of these refining things, I lost my way a few/many times!
In chasing flatter phase response, I inadvertently went back to an earlier setup and lost the MR PEQ settings that kill off the nasty little rise in FR 2KHz to 10KHz. It even returns at 20KHz a tiny amount.
Seen here in green.
I was wondering why the HF sounded so rough again?
Flattening it out to the red plot sorted that out, but I’ve found hammering things flat with large dB cuts (-24 is the max), to make sure they are well and truly gone, whilst it measures well causes weird phase rises further down the frequency plot - don’t know why that is?
Smaller dB cuts (-10, -5 etc) do not do this.
I also tried reserving the polarity of the MF drivers, 180 degree change.
Then with some time shifting and PEQs in that region I got rid of the rise around 1KHz, seen here.
The problem with that was I couldn’t seem to reconcile the MF to LF phase at all.
Lost my way again 
Not giving up though, things are improving bit by bit.
On a positive note, the BMS4550 HF Comp Drivers are growing on me.
2 Likes
Today I will try again with the MF out of phase (that flat MF and HF phase plot is there), but I will redouble efforts on the MF to LF crossover integration.
Apparently I’m never going to stop the gentle rise of phase below around 100Hz unless I use FIR.
If I succeed, I will then integrate the Synergy LF and Tapped horn sub better - there is low hanging fruit there (I hope).
Slowly slowly catchy phasey.
3 Likes
Played around using this procedure
-
No X/Os on the LF and MF. BW 6dB/oct on HF hi-pass.
I am using 1000Hz at the moment as it takes over from the MF nicely. -
Volume level the drivers
-
Smooth the frequency plots using PEQs, hammer down the LF to interface with the MF. Hammer down any high freq rubbish from LF and MF that otherwise spoils the HF sound (had this to start with)
-
Further adjust to give nice enough Freq plot with the 3 drivers in unison.
-
Move time alignment of MF in relationship to HF back and forth, trial and error to get sweet spot regarding phase flatness.
Same with LF to find the sweet spot. -
Adjust PEQs to improve phase flatness
-
Kick back and listen🎶
The result is close to not more than 45° phase shift, 10KHz and down to beyond the point at which the MF hands over to the LF.
It’s a bit crinkle cut 
at 1/6 smoothing.
This is as close as have been to the Synergy concept doing its flattish phase thing.
I then added the tapped horns in, doing usual, selection of appropriate opposing X/O slopes, aligning the phases between Tapped horns and Synergy LF phase plots.
Sounds very composed and clean.
Calm and even right across the frequency range. That’s the Synergy.
They can play incredibly loud too, without pissing my ears off - that the reduced 2nd/3rd room reflections.
This is probably as far as I’ll bother getting them in the listening room
The sound is the sound - SH50 alike house sound.
Other than getting the real deal Misco MF drivers, and Faital 12"ers for the LF.
What I have work just fine. Danley doesn’t use boutique drivers😎
Next step is live with them for a while, see how they grow on me.
When the weather improves, I’ll take them outside and connect up my 3 PA Amps to drive them loud, control with a Behringer DCX2496 I still have, set them up and see what they can do
Might need to add the extra LF driver (= 6dB more loudness) and the 2 extra MFs per side - we’ll see.
After that, perhaps it’s time to take on an SM60F alike build
Or custom dispersion angle MEH?
5 Likes
I have seen TAD2001s whacked on the end, and it did cross my mind to adapt for the S2s, but they don’t go high enough really, would need a non Synergy tweeter🥴
Anyone with a pair of TADs fancy lending me them, in the name of science?
The BMS 5CN160 coaxial is considered good enough for the HRE1s at $23K each speaker though.
1 Like
Looking good Steve!
Following with interest, could be an ideal use for my 4x Volt BM2500.4 10" drivers if I can get my head around the theory and hornresp…
Yes, will keep the grey matter exercised.
Should add that you are paying for Danley knowhow, a full on FIR convolution engine, full integrated DSP, twin 15" woofers etcetera
Couldn’t stop there😀
This evening I focused on the BMS 4550 compression drivers in the SH50s.
(‘Cheap balloon’ drivers🙂)
I’ve been having a bit of a hard time comparing them with the Vitavox S2s (latest issue diaphragms, fully refurbished) on Le Cléac’h horns.
Things like piano and female vocal just not smooth enough…
I searched for tuning compression drivers and wasn’t disappointed😀
I focused on the FR peaks when looking at high detail, 1/16 or more smoothing - much higher detail than I usually care to look.
I cut the worst peaks on each BMS HF channel and had a listen. Much smoother but not dulled.
Could Inc the SPL a bit to taste, for more dynamics, without the grating or setting my ears on edge.
It’s a much nicer listen.
Then did the same on the MF (Celestion 5"ers).
One thing I noticed in the measurements answered one of my construction questions…!
Comparing the RH MF (where I had dished the taps under the drivers), when looking in that sort of detail gave quite a bit smoother FR curve than the LH channel (I’d purposefully just done straight holes through)…
The difference is not audible to me as such, but it is on the plots.
I will dish them next time I have the thing apart for some reason.
So that’s cleared that up for me🙂
4 Likes
Well I lasted just over 2 weeks with the sound of the BMS 4550 1" drivers in the conical SH50 alikes.
Don’t get me wrong, on a dance floor, or a wedding it works just fine.
Personally for me - long term hifi listening it just lacked that emotionally epic, draw you in performance and sound I get from my Vitavox S2s on the Le Cléac’h horn.
So here’s what I’m listening to now
Subs - Still the tapped horns
LF and MF the SH50 alike Synergy horn
HF- S2s / Le Cléac’h
HF+ Raal Lazy ribbons
I went back to my usual implementation of crossovers that are chosen for similar slopes to give good phase aligned overlaps (not trying to flat phase adjust outside of the Synergy horn).
To sum up, I like the LF bass performance from the Synergy, the MF is fine enough too (for now?).
Now I have the S2 magic back too, and if my daughters come and listen they will not miss the Raal HF+.
Also, I’m not listening in a big cinema room where even sound coverage is important.
What next? Who knows🙂
3 Likes
2 Likes
I bet that sounds fantastic after a few too many Kingfishers😂
Would you step into the quad?
2 Likes