Black statues of white racists

[htm_1968]

@SAP7

For example, possibly invoking the ire of Olan (by another tangent), there are places that still grace this earth that are obscene but are under the “lest we forget” principle.

That is whataboutery plain and simple.

[NAM]

@pbg

shows England as one of the nastiest countries the world has ever seen.

ah well, in Scotland there’s a prevalent fantasy that we weren’t part of that nasty shit

[SAP7]

Let’s have a fight to settle it?

Used to be how wars started. No one is wrong here as absolutely no one has condoned what he did!

[Ruprecht]

Statues embody Idolatry & reverence. They are looked upon as symbols of success and achievement. Idiots like Tommy Robinson for example use them as symbols. The Narrative that accompanies these statues / people is often skewed. There is no freedom in this, the truth is what helps humanity advance not egoistic posturing or symbolism or white washing.
I like Banksys idea or putting them in a museum where the truth can be told.

[Ruprecht]

@SAP7

No one is wrong

Ask a black man how he feels about racial ambivalence

[crimsondonkey]

Even amongst people who agree on the same topic you’re never going to please everyone.

Personally I like the idea of reinstalling Colston’s statue but in a scenario/ setting to illustrate and celebrate it being pulled down. I think this reframes the original statue within modern society’s values of equality and tolerance, and the abhorrence of racism and human slavery.

However I’d be just as happy to see it shoved in a museum in a section entitled 'Racists, slave traders, exploiters, abusers and wrong ‘uns’.

Or never exhibited at all.

[Ruprecht]

@SAP7

I’m saying there presence is a reminder of how we have changed.

If a statue of a slave trader is there to symbolize how we have changed it should be made of dung.

[Penance]

This is the wording on the Colston statue plinth

“Erected by citizens of Bristol as a memorial of one of the most virtuous and wise sons of their city AD 1895”

I await your explaination as to how this reminds us we have changed and how it explains he made his money by selling and killing black people.

[Ruprecht]

@SAP7

We have left trenches and concentration camps

Neither of which were designed to celebrate and immortalize on ornate plinths.

[Penance]

@SAP7

No one is wrong here

Except you.

[SAP7]

Fucks sake

So moving it makes that all never happen? It’s got a date on. Most people are able to make their own mind up and see it as a sad indictment of what was acceptable then. A living reminder. You don’t agree with the words just by leaving them in place.

Depends how you want to learn. You just change your view of what a statute means. I can’t defend those words but I can argue they existed, and we can learn and be reminded of why we must all do our bit not to Go Back!

“ I await your explaination as to how this reminds us we have changed and how it explains he made his money by selling and killing black people”

Your reaction to those words answers your question. You read it and your indignation is evidence of change.

[malbec]

To me, the biggest issue is not about statues but about education.
It’s been a long time since I was in school, but we learned fuck all about slavery other than a brief touch on William Wilberforce. And it certainly seems the same now. This is appalling and need to be rectified.
Without the teachings of cold, hard facts and despite how some people may feel about them, they should be taught.
As a nation we did some pretty bad shit but now is the time to bring that out in the open.
We live in an incredibly diverse country and should be proud of that. But that diversity needs to be taught about the past so that debate and discussion can take place. If that happens then maybe the statues can stay in place or, as has been said, placed in museums. Whatever is decided, for me anyway, education is the key.

[SAP7]

Amen.

You can bury and hide all our mistakes, but daily confrontation is one way to force learning.

One way. Other views may be available and this does not indicate the support of the author for one in particular (I could live with many options).

[Penance]

Bloody hell, you really dont get it.

Have it your way, stick racism on a pedestal, lets see how that goes.
Or you could ask the people of Bristol, they might have an answer for you.

[SAP7]

You have the ability to see a statue as you want.

You are not compelled to take the view that it must be a celebration.
You can see it as something that was celebrated and that you must now make your own decision on.
It doesn’t force you to accept it as support for all it espouses, just because that’s what was intended. That subtlety is what I am failing to get across here?

[Penance]

There is nothing subtle about your point, it is bluntly incorrect.
You fundamentally misunderstand a statues meaning.

Lets pretend you are correct, why are there no statues of Hitler in Germany?

[Wayward]

@SAP7

Anyway, it’s impossible to debate such a challenging topic in a forum thread.

Not stopped you though has it? You have the most posts in the thread.

[coco]

[SAP7]

Having reflected I can summarise as:

You can change world to reflect common consensus.
Or
You can change how you view the world against common consensus.

The key thing is not the world, it’s the consensus. That’s it. Opinion, education, and mind set is way more important.

[coco]

History should remember these people for both their good and bad deeds. But statues are not history, they are there to celebrate individuals.

This is why the Colston statue had to come down.