Either works
He raises this point (much of it quoted from a speech by Ivan Rogers)
They [the rest of the EU] genuinely do not understand a UK debate in which the two [immigration and free movement] are conflated at all. They do not understand why a Government would have a migration target covering migration from within the European Union, which for other people is not migration. They do not call it migration; they do not call it immigration. They call it free movement⌠[t]hey said, âBut one is migration, which is external to the European Union, and the other is free movement of people, which is not at all the same thingâ. Indeed, within a single market it makes no more sense to talk about immigration between member countries than it does to do so between counties in Britain.
One of my neighbours has a daughter who youâd have to call unskilled. She has had occasional work in a large distribution centre near here. My neighbour tells me that her daughter failed, in the end, to get a permanent job there âBecause they are all Poles. The Poles are now in junior management positions and one way and another they make sure that British people get squeezed out. Most of the time most of the conversations are in Polishâ. I donât know how much of this is true and how much is perception. But when did you last hear anyone say âOh youâll never get a job in the XYZ warehouse. Everyone there is from Hertfordshire. Or Dorset. Or Cumbria.â ? Iâm guessing no-oneâs ever said it.
If the rest of the EU seriously âcanât understandâ that the people who have travelled to Britain from eastern Europe have retained distinct communal identities then I fear that the problem is with their understanding.
VB
Arenât there parts of France & Spain where British emigres do exactly the same? (ie retain a distinct communal identity)
Yes. Yet another reason why I fail to see why âThe rest of the EU genuinely do not understandâ. How can they not have noticed ?
VB
Itâs hardly a new phenomenon. From Hugenots in the East end, Indians, Pakistanis & Bangladeshis in various parts of the North & Midlands, Greeks & Turks in North London & Yemenis in Sheffield. Itâs what people do.
Yes.
Yes they do.
Yes. Yes. Yes.
But apparently âThe rest of the EU genuinely do not understandâ that when they do, that looks different from a load of people turning up from Berkshire. Their failure (and that is the right word) to understand that is what I genuinely do not understand.
VB
I have heard that said in the past and presently. There is a lot of resentment where I live in East Sussex towards DFLs (down from London) who, the perception is, move here with money because of property price inequality and thus are generally better off. They are able to buy houses which many locals canât. So regional issues do exist in the UK.
I think the point being made is that Europeans have moved beyond thinking in terms of immigration and are surprised that the UK hasnât.
There is still a lot of tribalism in us.
My neighbour would say that some Europeans - the Polish ones who she feels have squeezed her daughter out of a job - very definitely havenât moved beyond thinking in terms of immigration. And when Craig points out that
How, exactly, is that not âthinking in terms of immigrationâ ? They donât deport their own jobless citizens, only the people whoâve come in from the neighbouring âcountyâ.
VB
I donât disagree. When I said:
I think the point being made is that Europeans have moved beyond thinking in terms of immigration and are surprised that the UK hasnât.
I was expressing my reading of the article, not that I agreed with it.
There are, and will be for many years I feel, people who view people from other areas (in their own nation or outside of it) with suspicion and distrust. When this changes humanity might have a fighting chance of making it.
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Yep. Too much tribalism, not enough humanity.
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Sadly the history of vertebrates, and quite a few invertebrates, seems to have been that the competitive ones are the ones who end up coming out on top. Our genes are not always very far-sighted and that isnât going to change naturally
Unfortunately the meek are only likely to inherit the earth (what was that about, by the way ?) if everyone goes meek at the same time.
VB
British gammon are the experts at not integrating.
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See the meaning of the Cornish word - Emmet
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Uhhhm. Leaving aside I didnât say anything aout immigration in the terms youâve framed it, I think the point is obvious: free movement of workers requires administering. We chose a âless beaurocraticâ way. So yes, we have a new shelf in the supermarket and a smidgen more accents in the factory, yes, but also in the councils, schools and hospitals which depend on the availability of such labour., not âcheap foreign labourâ. For every manual worker thereâs a civil servant, a care worker, a nurse, a doctor.
I just canât get down with the youâre not from round 'ere, are you philosophy., and i cannot equate that with the perfectly legitimate grievances that led to some areas voting no. Iâm from South Yorkshire: Iâd like to think I understand rather well the white collar grievances behind its Brexit vote (less so the By-Jingo Blue-Rinse dog-whistle English-identity equivalents elsewhere): inequality has grown immeasurably since deindustrialization was so (willfully) botched, and this has bugger all to do with Poitr and Pedro stacking shelves. Cause and effect.
The rest of the EU just donât get it because they probably donât comprehend how we can be so two faced; having a problem taking âtheirâ labour to fill the copious skills gaps in our labour market, while exporting 1.5 million state-sucking gammons, who live in their expat enclaves moaning about this that and the other.
I canât think of a more frightful consequence of Brexit then that lot returning to our fair isle, but each to their own.
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Bingo. Top of the shop
I think Iâll just let these two statements speak for themselves.
The UK doesnât âtakeâ people. They come here if/when they want to and they go back to where they used to live again if/when they want to. Nor does it âexportâ people. They go if/when they want to. The only âexportingâ will happen if people are forced to move against their will, and both sides in the negotiations have said clearly that they donât want that.
VB
One of neighbours has moved, as a family, to Italy. They are a British-Italian couple with one child, who has been here all his 13 years.
They said it was all about Brexit: she doesnât feel welcome here any more (even though St Albans voted 2:1 remain), and this is their chance to remain European.
Similarly a week ago Claire and I viewed a house for sale. The owner who must have been around 70 years old is moving to France - He hates Brexit that much and wants to remove any association that he has.
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I love the implications of these âTory Brexitâ cartoons, as if Labourâs Brexit is going to be somehow better.
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