Israel, Hamas, the Middle East

Part of the problem is that people take very definitive sides on an issue where neither side is even close to being a morally acceptable choice.

The actions of the current Israeli government and previous governments towards the Palestinian people sre not even close to acceptable, and the events leading to the establishment of the state in its current form do not justify them in any way.

The actions of Hamas towards Israeli citizens and the current and previous Israeli govenments are not even close to acceptable, and the events leading to the establishment of the state in its current form do not justify them in any way.

The actions of certain states do not help in any way (for example, the right wing nutter element in the USA).

Anything more is for the pfm thread that I am going to stay well away from.

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Horrific

I’m surprised this thread even exists, so futile is it. This conflict has existed for my entire life, and well before it - and all that has ever changed are the names of the two terrorist groups involved, although "The State of Israel’ has been pretty consistent.

Success of one or the other terror group is judged by numbers of dead, and by that token, The State of Israel always wins in the end. And they will this time, too, once they feel they’ve killed enough people.

The customary Western handwringing is pointless - one side has every possible advantage: numbers, weapons, funding, intel, fabulously-shaky historic moral high-ground, and absolute control of the propaganda - the other is portrayed as a mix of career-victims and habitual terrorists.

Thanks to this - and especially to the West relentlessly backing one side: we have the global rise and proliferation of militant Islam. Lovely. Sit back as Africa and most of Asia fall under its sway as the decades roll-by… So much more delicious human suffering and misery is yet to come…

Whatever the rights-and-wrongs of it all actually are, (protip: it’s ALL wrongs), the whole topic bogs-down instantly in a mire of “it’s complicated” (it’s not) and “that’s antisemitic” (criticising the State of Israel in any way shape or form).

It’s like watching the school’s worst bully (who’s been abused at home), beating-up on the creepy, pervy, thievy kid (who’s also been abused at home). It’s an ugly brutal mess, but they’d both be nothing without one-another, they’d both be nothing if they weren’t so fucking nasty, they both leave long trails of innocent victims behind them, they will both never learn to stop being shits, and they both kinda have it coming to them…

There is only one way this tit-for-tat slaughter will ever End:

ground0ocean

I’m not advocating for it, just acknowledging the intractability of this, and the ROW’s impotence.

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This from Private Eye, maybe 15 years ago

Which would be funny, if there weren’t a thousand plus dead people and more to come :frowning_face:.

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And repeat. And repeat. And repeat…

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The BBC also avoids describing Israel as terrorists backed by the USA.

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The conflict touches Scotland:

Does any country or broadcaster?

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What’s the first rule of war ?

Don’t start one.

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The first rule of dumb is doing exactly what you’ve previously done and expecting a different result.

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No.

BTW, I’m not advocating for either side. The whole thing is utterly ridiculous to the point of absurdity. Lines on a map, greed and power coupled with who has the best fairy tail. I can’t even begin.

I’m with sodders. It’s so pointless debating it tbf. I just know they are all twats in this.

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A good article:

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…and another one:

Well worth reading. Very compassionate, moving and articulate.
Thank you for posting it.

TIL (from an article in the FT) of the existence of the Israeli D9 series of vehicles for use in “hostile environments”.

Give it two months and thirty will be seen doing the school run in Surrey.

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Looks like a cross between Shunt and Sir Killalot

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Fair points, well made, mind changed.

Can we bring back the use of Guerrilla, I do miss that one.

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Particularly when pronounced by Sir Trevor McDonut.

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