The second floor!
Itās a nice view from there
It definitely can be lol
Honestly, I hope youāre back soon. Derbies are the best.
Liverpool strolling to an easy win against Villa.
Vs
No plan b from Villa, playing high and easily wrong footed/got behind, Liverpool could/should have had more today and yet looking at Villaās previous games I expected a close and hard fought match. Football eh.
Emeryās entire game plan is built upon pressing intensity. From the first 5 mins I could tell that the players werenāt going to do that today and then like the Newcastle game, the result was pretty inevitable, the only question being how many would Liverpool score.
Villa were dreadful. Very little possession, and they were mashed in midfield. When they had a chance they biffed it.
The second half was a warm weather training session, and they had effectively given up. Liverpoolās midfield was shiny. Whether itās glossy enough to blind shitty I donāt know.
EUROPE
Well thatās Chelsea and utd out the title race,though not sure either weāre ever in it.
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOH
GET IN THEREā¦
GO)OOAOOOO!OO!O!OP!LO!P!LP!!!@
GKPASJDFLJKAJKSDAKLSJD
FJOAKJSD{OIJA{)ISEU{(UW({EU{ASIO
ahemā¦
Our midfield has legs again. Szoboszlai looks really exciting - if it wasnāt for Darwinās mad cameo against Newcastle that would be 4/4 MoM performances.
Quietest Iāve seen Watkins, @crimsondonkey. He normally has a riot against us.
They were all useless, Watkins included!
Nothing that much easier opposition wonāt rectifyā¦
Grim. As. Fuck.
The only good thing about this car crash is the incisive interviewing with no punches pulled. Henderson was sitting on a massive legacy at Liverpool and heās pissed the lot up a wall
paywalled unfortunately. I was surprised to see him called into the latest England squad though. Even in the short term (Euros next year) what is the point?
Very disappointing. Everything pointed to him being one of the good guys, right up to the point where he basically went āforget everything I said and did before, I just want an awful lot of money stuffed into my mouthā
Sadly this is just another sad tale in the corruption of sport. Forget ideals just take obscene amounts of money, which flows freely through the greed of players & agents, the idle governing bodies content to do nothing for cash, sycophantic journalists and pundits, and clickbait noise makers.
Big wall of text so Iāve hidden it in in the Summary below for anyone it was paywalled on.
Summary
Jordan Henderson: I strongly believe that me playing in Saudi Arabia is a positive thing
In his first interview since leaving Liverpool for Saudi Arabia, Henderson answers questions on money, his morals and leaving Anfield
By Adam Crafton, David Ornstein
Sep 05, 2023 06:58 AM
19 min. read
View original
Jordan Hendersonās transfer from Liverpool to Saudi Arabian Pro League side Al Ettifaq was one of the most controversial stories of the summer.
The Premier Leagueā and Champions League-winning captain, who had long been an advocate for LGBTQ+ rights, has been questioned by many for moving in July to play in a country that criminalises homosexuality. Many felt the England international put the vast amounts of money on offer from Saudi Arabia ahead of his morals.
Henderson has not spoken about the move but today, for the first time, he explains the thinking behind his decision and answers the criticisms aimed at him. He also discusses his departure from Liverpool.
We have decided to run the interview as a transcript below (edited in some parts to avoid repetition) so you can make your own minds up as to what you feel about his answers. And so you can see how the conversation developed.
As with all The A thletic interviews, no topics were off limits and neither Henderson, his representatives nor Al Ettifaq were allowed approval of the words or headline before publication.
Ornstein: All your pre-season preparations appeared to be focused on returning to Liverpool in the Premier Leagueā¦
Henderson: That was very much the case. I had a chat with the manager at the end of last season, which was about the season coming up, the players that we were looking to bring in and what his plans were. I went away over the summer and I had an intense period of training to make sure that I was in the best shape possible when I returned to Liverpool.
Ornstein: You were Liverpool captain, the man who lifted the Premier League and Champions League trophies. When did that start to change? Was there an approach from the Saudi Pro League? Did Jurgen say you werenāt part of his plans?
Henderson talks to Crafton and Ornstein (Photo: Ian Hodgson)
Henderson: There were a few things that sent alarm bells ringing. Iāve got a very good relationship with Jurgen. He was very honest with me. I wonāt go into detail about the conversation because itās private, but it put me in a position where I knew that I wasnāt going to be playing as much. I knew there were going to be new players coming in my position.
And if Iām not playing, as anybody will know, especially the manager, that can be quite difficult for me and especially when Iāve been at a club for so long, Iāve captained the team for so long. Especially when Englandās a big thing for me. Youāve got the Euros coming up. And then there was an approach from Al-Ettifaq to the club to see if it would be possible for me to go there. The reaction from the club again wasnāt to say no. At that moment I felt as though my value or the want for me to stay, with the manager and within the club, maybe it had shifted. I knew that time would come at some point. I didnāt think it would be now. And I had to accept that.
Iāve got very good relationships with Jurgen, with the owners of the club. Thatāll be forever. What weāve achieved together in the past 12 years has been incredible. But at the same time, it was hard for me to take that.
Crafton: Was there part of you that was thinking, āIād just like you to fight for me a little bitā, as in āfight for me to stayā?
Henderson: If one of those people said to me, āNow we want you to stayā, then we wouldnāt be having this conversation. And I have to then think about whatās next for me in my career. Now, thatās not to say that they forced me out of the club or they were saying they wanted me to leave but at no point did I feel wanted by the club or anyone to stay.
Ornstein: Why did you choose the Saudi offer? Did you have other opportunities? Because I think many people will be wondering what the captain of Liverpool was doing considering that move.
Henderson: Iām at the latter stage of my career and I want to be happy playing football. I want to play. I donāt want to be sitting on the bench and coming on for 10 minutes in games. And I knew that would have an effect on my chances of playing for England.
Crafton: Liverpool have bought midfielders before when youāve been at the club. Thiago Alcantara came in. Naby Keita came in. And youāve always responded. There have been times when players came and Iāve thought, āIs Jordan going to be in trouble?ā And then you came back stronger each time. Were you tempted to think, āOK, theyāre not saying theyāre desperate for me to stay, but Iām going to prove them wrong and get back in the teamā?
Henderson: 100 per cent. That was the whole thing about this training regime over the summer. I was working so hard and people saw the shape that I came back in. But when I got back, it was still the same situation, which made me think, āActually, this time, does it matter what I do?ā
Ornstein: Did you consider other options or was it full steam ahead with the Al-Ettifaq approach?
Henderson: I think a lot of clubs would have known there was a possibility of me leaving because it was speculated over the summer. Iād love to sit here and say that every club under the sun was wanting me. But the reality was that they werenāt. Liverpool is where my kids were born, Iāve achieved so much there. I love the club, I love the fans and the thought of playing against them would have been a different challenge in a different way. And it wasnāt something that I felt was right for me.
Crafton: What if it would have been maybe a Brighton or a Brentford, that kind of level, or was it your view, āIf Iām going to stay in European football, I want to be really competing at the topā?
Henderson: I wanted something that would excite me. And thatās not to say those clubs wouldnāt excite me because they are great clubs and they come with really different challenges. But it needed to be something that I felt as though I could add value in and do and try something new, a new challenge and for different reasons.
And this opportunity with Stevie (Gerrard) in a totally different league and totally different culture was something completely different, that maybe it would excite us in terms of the project that was put in front of us, in terms of the league and using my experience to try to help with that in many different areas and feeling that people value. Itās nice to feel wanted. I know Stevie really wanted me. I know the club really wanted me to go and they wanted us to try and build over the next few years ā something that is here to stay and be one of the best leagues in the world.
Ornstein: Does that value extend to monetary? Because thereāll be so many people who will hear you say, āI want the challenge and the project and Stevie and the excitementā but still say āhe has just gone for the moneyā.
Henderson celebrates a win in Saudi Arabia (Photo: ALI ALHAJI/AFP via Getty Images)
Henderson: That was the hardest thing. People will see this club come with loads of money and heās just gone, āYeah, Iām going.ā When in reality that just wasnāt the case at all. People can believe me or not, but in my life and my career, money has never been a motivation. Ever. Donāt get me wrong, when you move, the business deal has to be tight. You have to have financials, you have to feel wanted, you have to feel valued. And money is a part of that. But that wasnāt the sole reason. And these possibilities came up before money was even mentioned.
Crafton: Itās been pretty widely reported figures like Ā£700,000 a week or four times what you were earning at Liverpool. Is that true?
Henderson: No. I wish it was (laughs). No, honestly, the numbers just arenāt true. But again, it had to work out for us financially as well. Iām not saying that it didnāt and Iām not saying, āOh, Iām not on good moneyā because itās good money and it was a good deal but it wasnāt the numbers that were reported. No.
Crafton: So youāre saying that Steven, in all the conversations you had with him, was never mentioning the money to you?
Henderson: Stevie never mentioned money. Everything I spoke to Stevie about was football and the project. And he actually said he didnāt want to get involved in any of the money stuff. It was all about what we could do together to achieve something special and build a club and build the league.
Ornstein: It prompted a backlash from fan groups, LGBTQ+ rights groups, around Liverpool and the wider game. You will have seen many of the comments, absolutely damning. They were urging you not to take it and they hoped you would do the right thing in their eyes and reject the move. Did you start to have second thoughts? Were you talking to your wife and your advisers and your friends?
Henderson: Every day. It was a difficult time, definitely. Donāt get me wrong, I donāt want people to feel sorry for me. It was just difficult to make that decision. Iād been at a club for so long, a club that I love and have a lot of respect for the fans, the owners, the manager, my team-mates ā to leave my team-mates was a big thing. But in the end, I felt as though it was the right thing for them as well.
But from the outside and people who donāt know me, then itās a lot more challenging to understand. There can be a lot of criticism, a lot of negativity around me as a person. And that was difficult to take. But I just feel as though, because I do care about different causes that Iāve been involved in, and different communities⦠I do care. And for people to criticise and say that Iād turned my back on them really, really hurt me.
Crafton: When you say you were having those second thoughts, what were they about?
Henderson: Everything. About the situation with the LGBTQ+ community and with everything that is being reported in Saudi, my family, footballing decisions, team-mates. And again, Iām not just saying this for people to think, āOh yeahā¦ā Iām just trying to give you some insight into what it was like. I spoke to so many different people that I trust, who know me, who will challenge me.
Crafton: What was it therefore, that persuaded you? What reassured you?
Henderson: I think there was always going to be criticism regardless of what I did, whether I stayed, whether I went. So basically I had to make the decision on what was best for me and my family. So the football is the football side. So do I go somewhere to try something new, to grow the game that I love in another country, and grow the league into one of the best in the world? That excites me because I want to grow the sport all over the world. And that got me going, really.
And obviously the LGBTQ+ community. I can understand the frustration. I can understand the anger. I get it. All I can say around that is that Iām sorry that they feel like that. My intention was never, ever to hurt anyone. My intention has always been to help causes and communities where I felt like they have asked for my help. Now, when I was making the decision, the way that I tried to look at it was I felt as though, by myself not going, we can all bury our heads in the sand and criticise different cultures and different countries from afar. But then nothingās going to happen. Nothingās going to change.
Henderson wore a rainbow armband but it was greyed out in his announcement video (Photo: Peter Powell/PA Images via Getty Images)
Crafton: So what youāre saying is by going and engaging, that brings a bigger possibility of change in some way?
Henderson: I think people know what my views and values were before I left and still do now. And I think having someone with those views and values in Saudi Arabia is only a positive thing.
Crafton: So I would press you on that, because we were told that around the World Cup in Qatar. You go, you engage. But I was there in Qatar walking down the street one day and saw a flag draped with a rainbow symbol crossed out, with the words that said, āNot welcome in Qatar.ā Then supporters were trying to go into the stadiums and they were having rainbow T-shirts taken off them. There was a story about one person being stripped down even and having it taken off them by a security guard. So I suppose Iād ask: have you actually seen or heard any evidence of this change on this specific issue?
Henderson: Firstly, Iām not a politician. I never have been and never wanted to be. I have never tried to change laws or rules in England, never mind in a different country where Iām not from. So Iām not saying that Iām going there to do that. But what Iām saying is people know what my values are and the people who know me know what my values are. And my values donāt change because Iām going to a different country where the laws of the country might be different.
Now, I see that as a positive thing. I see that because, from their (Saudi) side, they knew that before signing it. So they knew what my beliefs were. They knew what causes and campaigns Iāve done in the past and not once was it brought up. Not once have they said, āYou can do this, you canāt do this.ā And I think it can only be a positive thing to try to open up like around Qatar. In the end, around Qatar, having a World Cup there shined a light on certain issues where I think in the end, I might be wrong, but they changed some rules and regulations to be able to host the World Cup and I think thatās positive. Thatās the way you try to create positive change. And Iām not saying that I can do that. Iām one person.
Crafton: At Liverpool, a little thing, which meant a lot to a lot of people, was that you wore the Rainbow Laces and the rainbow armband. And during the Rainbow Laces campaign, when most players sign off a statement or quotes to go on a club website, you really engaged. You created expectations, which people feel that youāve not matched up to. So when you say you would continue to be the same person, would you wear rainbow laces still or would you see that as disrespectful to Saudi people?
Henderson: I wouldnāt rule that out. But at the same time, what I wouldnāt do is disrespect the religion and culture in Saudi Arabia. If weāre all saying everybody can be who they want to be and everybody is inclusive, then weāll have to respect that. Weāll have to respect everyone. And by doing something like that, if that did disrespect the religion, then no, Iām not going to do that. But if the opportunity comes where I can do it and it doesnāt, then yeah, because thatās my values.
Crafton: That strikes at the heart of the tension here, as there are laws in the country. But there are almost certainly gay Muslims in the region of Saudi Arabia and the Gulf, who are arguably the most important people in this discussion and feeling the brunt of that situation. To go back to the words that you have used in the past, everyone should be able to be themselves. That is where people see the issue.
Henderson: Yeah. Iām not an expert, Iām learning with this, but the way that Iām trying to be is Iām quite a positive person. So I like to think by me going with the beliefs and values that I have, is that not a positive thing?
Crafton: I donāt know. Letās take something that happened when Al-Ettifaq announced your signing. There was a video that went out on social media from the club, where it looked to a lot of people as though in one of the pictures, your armband, which was rainbow in the original, had been greyed out. And a lot of people interpreted that to mean maybe they have censored it or changed that. Do you know whether that was the case?
Henderson: I didnāt know anything about it until it was out. And itās hard for me to know and understand everything because it is part of the religion. So if I wear the rainbow armband, if that disrespects their religion, then thatās not right either. Everybody should be respectful of religion and culture. Thatās what I think weāre all trying to fight for here in terms of inclusion and everything.
You know, years ago, for instance, women or kids probably couldnāt play football, but now Iām over there and thereās loads of women and girls playing football, so slowly things can change. I canāt promise anything, but what I can do is sit here and say I have my values and beliefs. And I strongly believe that me playing in Saudi Arabia is a positive thing.
Henderson insists he did not discuss money with Gerrard (Photo: Peter Powell/PA Images via Getty Images)
Ornstein: Do you think that you holding those beliefs is respected by the Saudis and the people who are employing you? Will they be unhappy to hear these words?
Henderson: Thereās never been any mention of, āYou can say this, or you canāt say this.ā Itās basically, āYou have your values and your beliefs, which we will respect, but you respect our values and our beliefsā and surely thatās the way it should be.
Crafton: This is something we heard a lot during the World Cup in Qatar, about having to respect the culture. When we talk about culture, I think of food, music, sport, art. And then I think about being a gay person, which is not something where youāve woken up one day and decided you want to get into it. Itās something that youāre born as. You canāt change it. So therefore, when people describe homosexuality as a culture, I think gay people really struggle with that because youāre basically being told you have to just accept living a life where youāre illegal.
Henderson: (Long pause) Now, I totally understand that. And I couldnāt imagine how that must feel. And thatās why I have so much sympathy and the last thing I want to do is to upset you or anyone who is part of the LGBTQ+ community. All Iāve ever tried to do is help. And when Iāve been asked for help, Iāve gone above and beyond to help. Iāve worn the laces. Iāve worn the armband. Iāve spoken to people in that community to try to use my profile to help them. Thatās all Iāve ever tried to do. Iām not going to sit here saying, āWhy are they criticising me?ā I understand it. These are all the things I was thinking about, and I do care. When I hear stuff like, āYouāve turned your back on usā, that hurts me. I do care. I have family and friends in the LGBTQ+ community.
Crafton: What have they said to you?
Henderson: They know me, so itās not an issue. They were the people I spoke to before I made the decision. Iām comfortable knowing exactly what I am and exactly what I stand for. But I get and I can accept not everyoneās going to get that. So thatās why I can only apologise to those people if they feel like that.
Crafton: What would you say to those people who just say you were completely genuine, in terms of the engagement you made and the things that you did to support LGBTQ+ people, but then, as might be the case with loads and loads of people, thereās just a point where a sum of money comes along where itās simply too hard to say no to. Is the most honest answer here, āIāve been really genuine, but actually thereās an offer on the table and maybe most people in this position would do the sameā?
Henderson: It would be a lot easier for me to say that. But thatās not true. Itās not the case because money wasnāt mentioned until after the event. I could have stayed at Liverpool and earned a lot of money and if people donāt believe that, then thereās nothing I can do.
Crafton: I donāt want to dwell on this topic too much longer because I feel the intensity here now. But just a, really, almost yes-or-no question: as part of your agreement, will you receive payments for any sort of social media posts promoting the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia?
Henderson: No. Anything contractually was all to do with football. But thereās a lot of stuff that gets reported in the media and on social media. And Iāve learned over the years that you donāt know whatās true and whatās not. So youāve got to go and experience it for yourself. So my (reported) wages, for one, are not true. I see stuff about me thatās just not true. Thereās loads of things. Do we sit over in the UK just criticising everything that goes on in the Middle East when really, when youāre there, itās not quite like that. And Iāve found that over the past few weeks that the perception that Iāve seen in the media here, to what is the reality over there isnāt the same.
Ornstein: There was an article I read before this interview that sort of said that youāre being used ā not just you but others as well ā to help grow this league, and that is part of an attempt to improve the countryās image. Did it never get to a point where you listen to the people you were talking to before, including members of the LGBTQ+ community, and think, āI canāt do thisā?
Henderson: Itās hard to know what the reality is and whatās not true. Because you hear about stuff and youāre like, āIs that true?ā But when you speak to people who are close to me and have had experiences over in Saudi or over in the Middle East, itās like, āWell, actually, thatās not the same.ā
A perfect example would be before Qatar. We had a meeting with the FA about human rights, about the issues around the stadiums. I think it might have been Amnesty who had sent the images and stuff. And then, half an hour later, I go into a press conference or some media and Iāve commented on that situation. I was like, āWell, it was quite shocking and horrendousā and that was quite hard for us to see. But then when I went to Qatar and we had the experience we had at the World Cup, you get to meet the workers there and it was totally different.
Crafton: I suppose people would come back and say what you were presented with in Qatar as a high-profile footballer was always going to be different, a choreographed, manicured perceptionā¦
Henderson: Iām not saying that it wasnāt true. All of this stuff might have been. But when you go there and experience it for yourself, it is totally different. Now, what I would say is that if, letās say, all of those things are true, is it not good that it highlights the problems and weāre trying to make positive change, slowly? You know, Qatar made rule and regulation changes for the World Cup. Is that not a positive thing? Is that not what we want? Otherwise, if we donāt have the World Cup there and nobody goes there, then nothing really changes for the people that are living there.
Like you mentioned before, if you have gay Muslims in those countries, nothingās changing. Even looking in this country, Iām sure same-sex marriage nine, 10 years ago wasnāt legal ā but in time, things change, things evolve, things open up. And I hope hopefully that thatās the case everywhere. Thatās what I want.
Henderson captained Liverpool to their only Premier League title (Photo: Laurence Griffiths/Getty Images)
Crafton: As the Saudi league infrastructure starts to grow, what are the things that youāve been impressed by and what are the things that can still get better?
Henderson: I think thereās a lot to do to improve ā in terms of infrastructure, facilities ā but thatās ongoing. Youāre seeing the different training grounds, the gyms⦠all of that sort of stuff to get it up to a level that it needs to be at. I can see them working on it now, which is good.
Ornstein: Iām sure it would have been tricky for you and many others at the start ā acclimatising to the weather, to the facilities when youāve come from the top of the Premier League. But are you pleased you went? Is it going to be huge?
Henderson: Iām trying to embrace it. Itās totally, totally different in terms of culture, living, night-time training, getting to bed late, waking up during the dayā¦
Crafton: Are you being recognised?
Henderson: Yeah, a bit! I thought Iād be under the radar but people are coming over. Sometimes theyāre not even asking for a photo; itās just like, āWelcome to Saudi. Hope you enjoy your experience hereā. Iāve had loads of that and thatās been a really positive thing for me. Honestly, and Iām not just saying it, the people have been amazing so far.
Crafton: If you were to go back to Anfield, given everything thatās happened over the last couple of months, would you have any anxiety in terms of the negative reaction?
Henderson: To be honest, Adam, the negative reaction, I think a lot of it is on social media and in the media, which I donāt get involved with. When Iāve seen people around, they have all wished me all the very best. Even Liverpool fans. I dedicated my life for 12 years to the club. I gave them everything. And I would do it all again if I could go back. I think they know that, they appreciate that. Iād have no concerns if I had the opportunity or if they welcomed me back to say goodbye. Because that does hurt me a little bit, that I didnāt get to say goodbye properly to the fans.
Crafton: Have you done a testimonial?
Henderson: No. But if I had the opportunity to do something ā whether that would be a testimonial or just to go back to say ābyeā ā I think that would be good and nice for me to do, because that does hurt.
Ornstein: Englandās LGBTQ+ fan group has been quite vociferous in the last 24 hours, saying thereāll be no more cheering, no more banner with your face on. Theyāre urging their group to turn their back to the pitch as they feel you have turned your back on advocating human rightsā¦
Henderson: It hurts to hear that. I do care. Iām not one of these people who goes home, forgets about everything and is just like, āIām fine, my family is fine, just crack on.ā I do think about things a lot. But at the same time, I knew people can look at it like that and theyāre entitled to their opinion, theyāre entitled to feel like that. All I can say is that I apologise, Iām sorry that Iāve made them feel that way. But I havenāt changed as a person.
Crafton: Did you speak to Gareth (Southgate, Englandās manager) during the transfer to check where youād stand? You have said you were worried about how being on the bench at Liverpool may affect your England chances. Some people might say going off to Saudi Arabia presents the same issue.
Henderson: I spoke to the manager, who was very good. It wasnāt so much to check because I knew I didnāt really want to put him in the position where he would guarantee that Iād be playing for England. He couldnāt do that. Ultimately, I backed myself in terms of fitness, in terms of desire and keeping myself in the right shape.
Ornstein: Is there anything else you want to say to people reading?
Henderson: No, just thanks for taking the time. I donāt want a pat on the back or anything but I could have easily not done anything. I could have gone with another journalist (Adam is part of the LGBTQ+ community) who I may have a relationship with and been protected more. But I felt as though this felt right. Because I want to learn as well. Because itās hard for me to hear some of the stuff that Iāve heard and I want to learn why thatās the case and how I can help going forward. People can make their own mind up.
Pish. Utter fucking pish. Itās just about the money. Nothing more, nothing less.
Edit⦠donāt bother reading the long text. Itās just Henderson desperately trying to defend taking the money.
My views are still the same.
Iām only here to help develop the new league.
Money was never the issue.
A new challenge.
Family, blah
Friends, blah
LGBTQ+ blah
Bollocks, bollocks, bollocks.